Group says Vietnam veteran memorial is 'unconstitutional'
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COOS BAY, Ore. -- Should a Vietnam Veteran's memorial be removed from a Coos Bay park? One group thinks so.
A separation of church and state watchdog group wants the City of Coos Bay to remove the memorial from Mingus Park because they say it's unconstitutional.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation sent Coos Bay City Manager Rodger Craddock a letter saying the memorial itself isn't the problem, it's the cross resting on top.
They say it's an, "endorsement of Christianity over other religions and over nonreligion," and must be removed "immediately".
>>>Read the letter here
Craddock says the issue isn't unique to Coos Bay. "The city received it (the letter) and we passed it off to our city attorney to review that and relevant case law," he said. "Obviously these issues are happening around the nation."
The memorial was donated and placed in the park in 1972 by Western Bank and the Bay Area Jaycees.
Some people at Mingus Park told KCBY News that they have no problem with the cross.
Donna Marsh and Sharron Cox were at the park on Tuesday, and they think it should stay put. "Well, it's not unconstitutional, it just is not! God is in our constitution, and a cross, and if the city wants to put one up in a park I think they should be allowed to do that."
You can voice your opinion at a public meeting at the Coos Bay Public Library on April 2.
The attorney for the group asking for the memorial to be removed is scheduled to speak to KCBY News on Wednesday.
Do you think the memorial should be removed? Log in and leave a comment below:
I went to a war for your freedoms. Not one of those freedoms says you have the right to dishonor all vets because you are offended. Stay home and wait until Sharia Law takes all your religious rights away, then you can be offended.
I don't see how this has anything to do with respecting an establishment of religion. It's more about people who are angry with religion wanting to snuff out any symbol they can find that might offend them. Poppycock I say.
Don't punish believers just cuz atheist don't like. Tradition, wisdom, respect
The part that I find so amussing about all of this is that STILL, no one has said the memoral in question had to EVER be the only one there. Again I will say, You have the equal right to place a memorial based on your religion or non~religion in the park also. Just because the faith of these people is "Showing you up" by making the effort and commitment, to honor their comrads in their own way. If you want your religion to be equal, then give equal effort. No one is stopping you except you. The solution to your shame of being found lacking, is not to deny someone else! This piece of stone that was paid for with love, is not your lazyness scapegoat. As a NON~religious member of the community, I always enjoy seeing people come together to create something good out of something so bad. Tolerance over suppression.Â
Leave it..and love it.
For those who argue "leave it there, it has been there for years" and "if it offends you, just walk past it": although not as offensive as, say, a "colored only" water fountain sign or a statue featuring Swastikas, symbols and phrases of the past that are no longer acceptable today are modified or removed all the time.
For those who mention Arlington National Cemetery: you do realize that many headstones there do not have a cross, but rather have a Star of David, Star and Crescent, and several other non-cross symbols? http://tinyurl.com/c9s4tbq
For those protesting out-of-staters coming in and meddling in local affairs, did you also protest all those out-of-staters who opposed the perfectly legal and constitutional building of the Park41 mosque in NYC?
For those who say "it is not offensive to our veterans" or that the cross is not-religious, how do know you speak for all veterans?
For all those who think FFRF is an intolerant, censoring, and offensive organization, do you not see how the separation of church and state precisely makes it possible for you to practice your faith without persecution? Just because a group wants to remove a Christian cross from public lands does not mean you are being persecuted. To protect the free practice of religion in your homes and places of worship, public and government spaces must be kept free from any religious symbols and practices.
Although I did not serve, I am grateful to those including my father and my uncles who did so that you and I have the freedom to express our opinions and practice our beliefs (or follow our non-beliefs) in peace.
This has been in this park for years,BEFORE the Atheis took hold and is there for GRANDFATHERED IN. So shut up and use a different park if this offends you,your attitude offends me.
Long overdue.
They can do what they want in their state leave our's alone. The military is all religions including atheist. They fought and died for all and if other religions or non believers have not yet thanked them, then they have no say. WE have far more better things to be concerned with then taking time to deal with these idiots.
Saddens me...that one small memorial causes so much discord...None of our Lost Veterans stopped and said Oh...wait....Maybe someone someday will think I don't matter...Because it's A Cross that Memorializes Me....
My opinion..... to the Freedom From Religion people.....IF our Little Memorial is bothering you so much...Don't go to Washington DC where there are thousands and thousands of crosses of men who died protecting Your rights....and hope that Never Ends....
Georgia...we may not have asked for the discord, but we are stuck with it, so I suggest we try to find a solution that speaks to EQUALITY (nice avatar, wink wink)...because if we just continue to exchange clever quips among ourselves, someone else from outside is going to solve this for us.
My comment about your avatar isn't for or against...it's a dare to "practice what you preach."
Leave it alone.  He fought and died for us so what there is a cross.  It is actually a pagan symbol to get them to come to church way back when.  There is enough negative stuff going on in the world that is far more important that this issue.  Let the soldier rest in peace.... I agree with Mary Akey :)Â
While I agree "leave it alone" is a valid personal opinion, it falls short of considering that there are other valid personal opinions as well, and "leave it alone" is probably the least likely of all personal views to be satisfied at the end of this particular social journey...
Unless the Community engages in an agenda of solution that considers everyone, there is forever going to be someone who is not properly represented.
It's terrible when significant issues run out of steam before meaningful discussion leads to concensus. Take a look at how the military does it's best to equally represent religious affiliation, or lack thereof. Then, with a view to retaining a community's right to express itself on Community Property, let's ponder the result of expanding the Tribute to Vietnam Veterans to include ALL Veterans. In a nutshell, the Community could tell the Outsiders: "OK, since you don't like the so-called single religious symbol as representative of a single group, we'll add MORE in order to represent an Attitude of Equality & Compromise. We Love Our Veterans, get it? Now, go home."
And before anyone brings up cost as an issue...I have in my hand a crisp $20 bill I'll happily kick in, plus I have time & labor to contribute also...and I am positive there are thousands of people just like me in this wonderful little town.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_symbolism_in_the_United_States_military
@hdlady9 is.gd\/oSInto\/b1u8pgwâ¦s7d
Whoa there folks, Stop and think-What about the rights of those who want the Memorial and cross to stay, why do they have to give up their right to have the memorial there and the cross upon it. Why now  is a war being waged against Christianity? Our nation was based on a belief in God, you find it in the Constitution and other documents that set the basis of our country.Â
The memorial does not mean that all men who died in the conflict were Christians. Many had other religious beliefs. If  you do not like it don't walk by it. It is kind of like prayer in schools or saying the Pledge of Allegiance. We have the right to both, if you don't want to pray, don't. If you don't believe in the sanctity of our nation and its beliefs, then don't say the Pledge of Allegiance, you can keep your mouth shut and leave the room. We are not forcing it down your throat but do not infringe upon our rights and we will try not to tread on yours.  It is called respect.
The men this memorial is created for fought and died for the rights of all. Without their sacrifice you could be governed like Iraq , where you are killed if you do not agree with the religious teachings. Many countries still persecute people for opinions about religion.
Let the Memorial be that-Honoring our dead-Those who gave the greatest gift they could give for our country-Honor our fallen for they are the protectors of this nation. Their sacrifices allow you speak, to enjoy many freedoms, and make right or wrong choices.Â
.Â
What a tempest in a tea pot.
Ramrod Bandits, in reply to your reply: Wow! Amazing. Let me try!
From the very same Declaration, and actually before the line you quoted: "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them."
This is fun! Now, what do you suppose they meant? Why didn't they just say, 'God?' Well, I'll leave that for you to find out, yourself. It's no fun and you don't learn anything if you're given all the answers.
Why is it that I couldn't post this in direct response to Bandit's reply? Glitch?
What a can-o-worms...here's my recent experience in real-life regarding this issue. I know a great woman who served during Vietnam & after. It seems that for these 40 years, she's been rankled by the fact that the plaque mentions "Men" specifically. Well, doggone it, she's right to feel that way...but when I told her how I felt, I was accused of being "condescending." When I mentioned my earler-posted compromise, her long-lived animosity blinded her to it's merits. Folks, this is bigger than one Memorial in one Park, and noone's getting it. If y'all don't learn to get out of one's self and consider another's view as Valid, y'all are lost. I'm finished with this issue as non-productive and unhealthy.
@ColdWarGuy I can't disagree in the least, CWG. It's exactly what I have almost been pleading with other people to do: set aside emotions long enough to see the situation objectively, AND so everyone can be civil and calm and represent this town in a way that it should be represented.
What I'm seeing and hearing from people in my home town, is that I'm not welcome as an atheist. I'm not welcome as someone who might stand up, challenge the status quo, despite the fact that it is my right (and everyone's right) to do so. That change is not welcome here. And that a vast majority of the people who live here are content to tell people who don't agree with them that they should sit down, shut up, or get out.
As this issue goes on, my hope for our small, beautiful corner of the country to be more than the sum of it's parts is fading. And my hometown pride is circling the bowl. It's disheartening.
Well, I just got here, and am still in throes of falling in love with the place...but I am already reconsidering re-upping my lease for another year when it comes time. The ONLY thing that will keep me here is the genuine Love & respect for US Veterans I feel almost everywhere I go, but if the Citizens I Served are going to continue to behave like this, then I am outta here!
Ah...in case it's clarification of my statement that you're after...it (the statement) is not for or against religion, symbols, philosophies, creeds, or whatevers...it's simply a general statement against the pettiness that all sides are showing. The polarization that's eating at the core of our society..."I'm right, therefore you're wrong"...it's wearing me out.
@ColdWarGuy I'm a little leery of what this means for atheists like myself, or other dissenting views. My family is here and there isn't really any other place I could go, at the moment.
And I, myself, respect and honor the individual who fought for my country, regardless of creed. That's how it should be.
If the Vet was a Christian which I'm sure he was, then I can't see the problem. If he was Jewish he'd have the star of David above his memorial. If he was Islamic he'd have their religious emblem (whatever it is). I don't see the problem. If they're not religious then they are free to have monuments of their own with no emblem on top. Get a life!!!!
leave the memorial the only thing that needs to be changed is the cross take the cross down and put up a soldier instead it's supposed to be a monument for the fallen, lost and forgotten soldiers that fight for our country !!!!!Â
@Megine Cervantes From what I can understand they don't want to remove the entire memorial. They just want the emblem changed. The only way the memorial has to be moved is if it is unconstitutional, but it's decided not to replace the cross.
There are a lot of things a lot of us don't but we don't cry put your big girl panties on and quit whining.
This is AMERICA! This monument is an honorable piece in beautiful Mingus Park. If you don't like it just keep your mouth shut and look the other way. If it is offensive to one that is just too damn bad. America and ONE Nation under GOD (of our choice). Leave it alone.
@Diana Weekly Under God was added to the pledge in 1954. 178 years after we declared our independence from Great Britain.
@Vahavy From our Declaration of Independence. "... that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
Leave it alone.
Notoffen
I seen a interesting idea. Simply have the city of coos bay auction the 6' / 6' space the cross is on and let the local churches bid on it or better yet donate it to all the churches that represent Christianity equally. Better yet make it a 12' / 12' area and make the monument bigger and better. I stood there as a child and watched them erect it. it will always be with me and my memory of it will always be of an innocence that is long gone these days.. If  the city can not find a solution that leaves this monument right where its at they should be ready for a fight. my uncle Jerry did not give his life in Vietnam for atheist...
@Alan Heyer So your uncle didn't give up his life for Atheist Americans? Believe it or not this country is made up of people of many different religious faiths and people with no religious affiliation at all.
It's shocking to me how hateful some of you so-called Christians are.
@coquillesecular @Alan Heyer my uncle gave his life fighting for what he believed  was right. He was not an atheist so I stand corrected cause he did give his life for what he believed in and that was America and the freedom it provides all its citizens. Even atheist. You know what I find so funny about atheist is how fast they get religion when faced with a life threatening illness. lmfao
@Vahavy you took that awful personal being you don't believe in heaven or hell. I dont represent a group or a may be more respectful nor do claim to. I represent myself and my right to ramble on.
@Alan Heyer @Vahavy Really? Burn in hell, Mr. Hitchens? How loving of your fellow man. Not very Christ like. I'm embarrassed for the group you claim to represent.
@Vahavy burn in hell Mr Christopher Hitchens. hope you guys have one for me unless you change your mind on your deathbed.. lol
@Alan Heyer @coquillesecular Google Christopher Hitchens. He recently died of cancer. And he is widely known as an outspoken atheist. He did not convert nor renounce his nonbelief. This idea that nonreligious people convert or change their minds out of fear is so illogical and downright ridiculous. And anyone who truly believes that, is so narrow and closed minded. Again, insinuating that one would convert in fear, when fear is something that diminishes mental capacities across the board. You're saying that once we become unable to think we convert.
When it comes to Government Property, there is a difference between Administrative and Community facilities. Anyone who's willing can easily get onboard with that reasoning. I believe that what's lacking here is willingness to open one's mind. Moving or changing a Memorial that has stood as a part of the Community for over 40 years, well, we all know that shouldn't happen. Consider the intent to see there's no "tyranny" involved here. But, that's not to say the Memorial isn't out of synch with the state of mind of today's Community. If I was given time at the upcoming meeting, I would say this: Expand the footage in Mingus Park that's allotted for the Memorial.Design 6 or 8, or however many are needed, Memorials, that match the original in size, prominence, and respectful simplicity, but evenly distribute among these the appropriate symbols to represent every gender, culture, race, religion, etc, that has ever Served in the US Military, in any Action. Place them all evenly spaced in a circular fashion, plates either facing inward or out, and run a gravel walkway around the whole thing.To top it off, place a plaque at the entrance to the new Memorial explaining it's history.That's what I would say. And then I'd say I think the Coos Bay Community should hand the meddlers their hat, give 'em a swift boot in the butt, thank them for the positive things they do accomplish, and remind them once again that there IS a difference between Noble and Petty.
@ColdWarGuy I could not agree more with giving the opportunity to equalize every view as opposed to surppressing them. The only thing not taken into account here is that the memorial in question is in No way funded by the city/county/state, and in fact the group who worked together to pay for and build the memoral, pay leasing fees from the city. Which leads me to the opinion that if all different stereotypes of people want to add their own memorials, they should put in the same effort as those who already have. Temper tantrums should not be resolved by handing over what they want on a silver platter.Â
I apologise for the repost...but KCBY has muiltiple "threads" going about the same topic...which, IMO, probably isn't a good idea.
I certainly don't find it offensive. However, I can't help but that that more people would be in support of this removal if it was of a green star and crescent (symbol of Islam) in remembrance in those who died on 9/11... I, personally, would be fine it.
LEAVE IT THERE!!!!! R they going to get our money changed too? It has In God We Trust on it. If they dont like it, walk at the other end of the park!!!!
@Sara GlazierIn God we trust has appeared on most U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957. We declared our independence in the year 1776. It didn't used to be on the currency. And yes, in the future it may be removed again.
This is respectful, not offensive! Look the other way if you can't handle it!
@Denise Grenade Would you want a crescent moon on your grave? Oh, that wouldn't be offensive, ok, just look the other way!