Memorial: 'A cross on government land is a violation of the constitution'
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COOS BAY, Ore. -- A group that thinks it's unconstitutional for a Vietnam memorial with a cross to be displayed in a local park is standing their ground, but residents are too.
Landy Marshall never expected the cross to be an issue. "44 years ago? Not a chance, not a chance," he said.
He helped put the memorial here in 1972, after serving in the Vietnam War.
Now, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is threatening to sue the city.
KCBY News contacted Rebecca Markert of the group, to get their side of the story. "The issue is a sectarian symbol like a cross on government land is a violation of the constitution," she said. "The Bill of Rights exists to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority."
KCBY News also contacted the Coquille man who brought the cross to the attention of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, but he refused to comment.
A lot of people KCBY News spoke with don't have a problem with it.
Mario Castro says the statue is far from offensive. "So, I'm not religious, I'm not Christian or anything, but I come here and walk and it's like a nice statue, and it doesn't offend me in any sort of way."
Marshall says he doesn't even see it as a Christian symbol. "It does not mean Christianity. I didn't put it there because I'm religious," he said. "It's a marker that says here's someone who passed, who has died, who suffered and died."
To avoid a lawsuit, the group has told the city they can either change the memorial or move it to private property.
Residents are being encouraged to voice their opinion at a public meeting at the Coos Bay Public Library on April 2.
@GodsDontExist @FFRF Some of you de-Christianize the West on behalf of Muslim daawah intelligences.
When it comes to Government Property, there is a difference between Administrative and Community facilities. Anyone who's willing can easily get onboard with that reasoning. I believe that what's lacking here is willingness to open one's mind. Moving or changing a Memorial that has stood as a part of the Community for over 40 years, well, we all know that shouldn't happen. Consider the intent to see there's no "tyranny" involved here. But, that's not to say the Memorial isn't out of synch with the state of mind of today's Community. If I was given time at the upcoming meeting, I would say this: Expand the footage in Mingus Park that's allotted for the Memorial.Design 6 or 8, or however many are needed, Memorials, that match the original in size, prominence, and respectful simplicity, but evenly distribute among these the appropriate symbols to represent every gender, culture, race, religion, etc, that has ever Served in the US Military, in any Action. Place them all evenly spaced in a circular fashion, plates either facing inward or out, and run a gravel walkway around the whole thing.To top it off, place a plaque at the entrance to the new Memorial explaining it's history.That's what I would say. And then I'd say I think the Coos Bay Community should hand the meddlers their hat, give 'em a swift boot in the butt, thank them for the positive things they do accomplish, and remind them once again that there IS a difference between Noble and Petty.
@ColdWarGuy Thank you. This is one of the few intelligent responses I've seen on the issue. This is exactly what I was hoping for, but have seen an extreme lack thereof. Despite emotional responses and personal beliefs, one must be able to set them aside long enough to make fair and unbiased decisions.
Thanks, Vahavy. Compromise was at the heart of the creation of the USA, it's a shame it seems to have been removed from the job description lately.
I just discovered that KCBY has 2 topics going about the same issue...kinda counterproductive to effective discussion, if you ask me. I went ahead and reposted in the other one, also, as it seems to be the most active.
I was reading on the internet about other cases involving the display of crosses on public land. Â Yes, it clearly a breech of, separation of church and state. Â In the cases I read, it wasn't until a court made a ruling against displaying a religious symbol on public property that action was taken have it removed. Â So, if those opposed to the cross being displayed on public property, Â I suggest to lawyer up and take the case to court. Â Or, the memorial could be moved to a location on private property if those in favor of the cross want to keep the memorial as is. Â
Either way it's going take time and resources to make any sort of change. Â I think the really question is: Â How much time and effort are people willing to put into this issue ( beside complaining ) to take the necessary steps to promote change?
HMSK4CALI what ever you are assuming to assume...you don't know that.you are talking about. You need to use your brain for something besides babbling emotional talking points. CaptchaThis yeah all those things you are talking about... they need to go also. I think that your kind will soon be the minority, then how will you feel? Yonnie Ditch the cross, keep the memorial. Awesome comment!
@coquillesecular You just can't stand the fact that not everyone wants to push their ideas and beliefs on others like you do. If you don't like the monument then ignore it. And don't use size as an excuse because there are people here a lot bigger than that monument that are easy to ignore. Try reading the different meanings of what the symbol of the cross means before you assume it is for religious meaning. It is idiots like you that see a cross and assume it meant for religious purpose or meaning. Funny how it has been there for so many years and now people want to whine about it. Maybe JDominion has a point...maybe you should leave.
This nation and it's constitution was founded on Christianity under god, sign by our founders and fought for through every generation since. I worry that with all the nations problems...some people think that we need god taken out of America, out of our court houses, and removed from our money, removed from our schools, and now they threaten the very town that my family lives in. I am a Christian, I believe in GOD, and I trust that we need god in our lives. For those people who don't like the cross....Too Bad....If you don't approve of Christianity, then you are living in the wrong country and should probably move to another. That fact that people want to drive out Christians, god, and church, (the very idea that this country was founded on) worries me to no end. If people feel that worried about the cross, then you need to go home, gather your family, and go to church. You don't ask your kids if you want to go to school.....you send them anyway, You don't ask your boss if you have to go to work today, You know you have to go.... And what's more important than your SOUL. We go to church because we care about our end. If anyone feels bad things over religious symbols, Then you need to do some PRAYING & GET RIGHT WITH GOD, or the guilt, sorrow, and loneliness, will not go away. LEAVE THE CROSS ALONE!!! I am proud of peoples efforts to commemorate the things that have meant so much in their lives. And so many years later, It is wrong to contest it. Are we going to pull all crosses out of the graveyards too. And how long before you show up in my yard to tell me what I can believe in. If the city votes to remove the cross, then they have finally proven that this town is no different from the BIGGER, CORRUPT, cities. We love our little town, Lot's of Christians here, and if you don't like it, LEAVE!!!
When I see a cross on a lawn it looks to me like someone is buried there. How about exchanging the cross for a statue of an eagle or something? Not verybody who died in that war was was a christian. It is about courage, not about religion.
Please don't start in on me with the bible thumping. Freedom is not free and my father paid the ultimate price. He was a Navy fighter pilot.
He was a hawk on America's fist. I do not think a cross simbolizes him.
Hey news reporter, please get your facts straight! The FFRF is not threatening a law-suit. The FFRF letter to the city manager is just reminding the city that they are placing a xtian symbol on public property and using taxes to maintain a xtian symbol which is unconstitutional.
Ditch the cross (keep the memorial) and no more trouble. If the city fights this they will spend a lot more tax-dollars and lose!
5 minutes with a hammer & chisel the symbol will be gone, the memorial will still be there. The community will be united once again.
@Yonnie I seriously doubt they'll lose because they have cases similar to this where the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the symbol staying...this being one of them: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/29/nation/la-na-court-cross-20100429
Well, I guess the kids in school can't celebrate St. Patrick's Day, or St. Valentine's Day. By the way..... many parks across the nation have fountains and statuary depicting old Roman and Greek gods like Athena, Zeus, Apollo, etc. Â I lived most of my life in a city named for a Roman goddess of agriculture, and graduated from a high school named after an Indian god of knowledge named Ganesh. And our "government" museums and libraries are just chock full of pictures, statues and literature from all religions... they are considered "works of art." Well, so is this beautiful "work of art" in our little park. So now I suppose it will be illegal for Christians to read a Bible at the park, or stroll around the pond in a T-shirt with a cross on it? I wonder if people will no longer be allowed to honor family members with a plaque in the park if it has a religious quote on it, even though it is paid for by the family. This is not even an "establishment" issue since the government did not pay to put the memorial there. I suppose the National Cathedral will have to go. And the capitol building in DC was used for Sunday worship at one time. By the way, it is legal for Christian children to express their beliefs in the market place of ideas that we call "schools" as well. It's just that people don't know their own rights and allow these bullies to push them around. It is illegal in this country to discriminate against people based on several things, including religion. As taxpayers, Christians have rights as well as other people of various faiths, or no faith at all. We all need to respect each other. If the atheists want to, they can put an atheist memorial in a park too. The pigeons won't discriminate.
From a sister of a VietNam veteran who was killed on 3/28/67 I am outraged at the thought of residents wanting to take down the memorial. Whether it is a cross, or not. Those who gave their lives have given these people freedom. It has nothing to do with consitution, it has to do with RESPECT & HONOR of those who "GAVE ALL." I erected a War Memorial in my hometown in 1983, I would dare something like this come up there, because they would have to go through me first. It took 3 long, hard enduring years to collect the money, get all the names for 4 wars, and a lot of heartache. I would like to know how many of these people actually had someone that was in a war, or lost someone to war.
@Vanessa S. Payne Great, I've got family who have fought in every war on this continent in the last 4 centuries. I am a 'Nam' vet and so are my cousins. I'm not against a memorial, I am against a christian symbol sticking out of the middle of it! My family kept moving west to get away from over-zealous xtians, there's no more west and I'm not about to live on a boat! It's time to fight-back for our rights too!
Ditch the cross, keep the memorial. Please add the women who also fought and died in that nasty war.
So, when are they going to fight to get all the crosses off of Arlington Cemetery? A cross is not necessarily a "religious" symbol, it is used quite frequently by all kinds of people...including atheists as simply a marker! Get off of it! And this country "coquillesecular" was founded by those who wanted religious FREEDOM to worship as they wanted...and now those that don't want to worship ANYONE OR ANYTHING, want to STOP those that DO! And I don't like it! I don't care what god you or anyone else worships...its a lousy symbol that PEOPLE want to use, and the majority of people don't have a problem with. If the majority of people in this city don't have a problem with it, then leave it alone. Its a landmark if nothing else after 40 years. If you don't like GOD in anything, then quit using the money that says "in God we Trust"!
John Peters, times change & attitudes change. Many things that were acceptable over 40 years ago are not acceptable now (for example some forms of discrimination). This really just comes down to being a legal issue so let the courts decide whether or not the cross stays. If the court says the cross symbol has to go then just replace it with something more appropriate that still honors veterans. HMSK4CALI, I guess I just don't get what your hang up is. Don't forget that this country was in part founded by people escaping religious tyranny and you are advocating dropping people that don't hold the same beliefs as you in the middle of a war zone. Sheesh! and you are so arrogant to assume everyone would just fall down & worship your god?Â
@coquillesecular @coquillesecular Because you can bet your sweet A** that they would start to pray for their lives to the God they say they don't believe in. If it is any of your business which it isn't my dad was atheist. But he had enough respect for his fellow citizens to allow them to live their lives the way they saw fit. And honoring our veterans they way they are being honored with this cross is one of them. He would be one of the first to tell this group of ignorant people where to shove it if he was alive. And I have personally seen people like this group in situations when s*** happened and they were the first to pray before any of us. And I am far from arrogant. You must be one of the arrogant people that want this cross removed.
@HMSK4CALI @coquillesecular AMEN (so to speak) HMSK4CALI I got censored cause im just a bit more brazen than you. Vahavy in my research has managed to plagiarize every professor she has had or smoked dope with and debated philosophy with.
@Alan Heyer @HMSK4CALI @coquillesecular When did you get censored, Alan? And what are you even talking about? I don't even begin to know how to address your reply. The only thing need be said is that, you don't even know me. How could you know anything about who taught me or if I take substances or if I even debate philosophy.
What are you on, man?
@HMSK4CALI @coquillesecular If Secular is arrogant, it's far less dangerous than your ignorance. This belief that in the face of death every single atheist will 'repent' and convert to a religion is ignorance of an extreme caliber.
Also: by what you're saying (if I'm interpreting correctly, I can't find Secular's comment you're replying to), you are saying that in the face of life threatening danger an atheist would convert or pray. So, in moments of extreme fear or stress where mental faculties are mostly diminished across the board, rather than coming to the decision to believe under normal faculties, we would convert. You're not doing yourself any favors by using this argument.
@coquillesecular I can't see the courts saying the cross symbol has to go, otherwise they would also have to remove all the religious symbols and words from all the historical government buildings in this country that have been there for 300 or so years. that is called "revisionist history" (the illegitimate distortion of the historical record such that certain events appear in a more or less favorable light or alternatively in a particularly bad light.) Now, steps are being taken toward removing religious references from new construction of public property. The newest monument on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., is dedicated to World War II. On it is a partial quote from a speech by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. The phrase near the end of the speech, where Roosevelt says "So help us God," is omitted from the engraving - thereby revising history to satisfy a minority of non-Christians.
Well if they truly do not like the memorial then maybe they should not bother going to the park. This is a memorial to honor those that fought for the freedoms of this group of idiots. If you don't believe in God that is your right, but there are plenty of us that are not only religious but spiritual. If any Judge in right mind told the city to remove that memorial then he/she should be removed from the bench. They have the right to their feelings but WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO HONOR OUR VETERANS. So this group needs dropped in the middle of a war zone and lets see how fast they drop to their knees and pray!Â
Amazing turning on the TV and seeing the War Memorial that I helped build over 40 years ago in the news. In 1972 with Vietnam ending I was a member of the Bay Area JC's. We voted to build a memorial at Mingus Park in Coos Bay to honor the soldiers that had died in Vietnam. There was nothing about religion with picking the cross, it was just a generic symbol we decided on. There was Landy Marshal, his dad, Nick Stambaugh,Stan Black and myself . In fact the first cross got damaged by a car while parked at Nick's Arco where I worked and Nick Stambaugh was the owner. The memorial was built in a time when people spit on our boys who were coming home and calling them baby killers. We chose the park because it was a beautiful place and no one was doing anything at the time.(a number of our JC's were Vietnam Vets) I still remember the band,the Mayor and all the people that turned out that day,and not one person had a challenge with the cross. It would be a tragedy if that memorial was removed period. It would be one more way for people who did not participate in that war to spit on us one more time. These people need to get a life. I will be in Coos Bay on April the 2nd at City Hall to stress the fact that it must stand where it was planted. Maybe the fact that it has been there for over 40 years can make a difference. see you in Coos Bay---------------John D. PetersÂ
@John (JP) Peters I sat there as a 7 year old boy who lost an uncle in the war and I thought it was the neatest thing I ever saw. thank you JCs I will never forget my friend Landy Marshall being a part of that...
are you kidding it has been there 44 years,is this still America????????? we must fight lets take a stand
if worse comes to worse the land it sits on should be donated to private donors
""The issue is a sectarian symbol like a cross on government land is a violation of the constitution," she said. "The Bill of Rights exists to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority."Â What, did she sleep through history class? Separation of Church and State says, "legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' It says NOTHING about a cross on government land being a violation of the Constitution. The Capitol Building has the word "God" carved into its walls and painted on its entrances. Some artwork in the Capitol contains images of bibles and angels...heck, the U.S. House was used for church services until after the Civil War.
The Lincoln Memorial at one end of the nation's capital includes President Lincoln's second inaugural address, which makes six references to God in 700 words.
Also in the memorial is a quotation from the Gettysburg Address, in which Lincoln said, "This nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom."
The Washington Monument includes a bible in its cornerstone. The Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments inscribed in four places. The Library of Congress, White House and Jefferson Memorial all have references to God.
So, no, Rebecca, a cross on government land is NOT a violation of the Constitution. Your group, in my opinion, comes closer to being a violation than that memorial.
@CaptchaThis Well thats jsut peachy for you as a christian ain't it. Meanwhile the rest of us non-christians are sick of this religioiusity junk. Seperation of church and state is what we founded our country on,
But what would you care since you ASSUME we all think, fell and "believe" your DOGMA
@independentthinkerThere is difference between being "christian" and being "moral"...you appear to be neither. I never once said I was a Christian. Of course, leave it to someone like you to twist the truth. This country was NOT founded solely on separation of Church and State...it was founded to establish MANY rights by people seeking to practice whatever religion they chose...not the religion England deemed their "official religion." They did not believe a government should dictate what religion they must follow (respecting an establishment of religion) nor deny them the right to follow the religion of their choice (prohibit the free exercise thereof). Maybe you should join Rebecca in a remedial Reading Comprehension class...soon!
Arlington Cemetery is full of crosses. Are they going to make them move those? This is total BS. Its not there to force religion on anyone. Its there to show our appreciation for someone making the ultimate sacrifice for this country we live in. If they don't like it fell free to move to another country.